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Ontario Works, ODSP

by Ron Payne
(Hamilton, Ontario, Canada)

This was sent to the Premier of Ontario Dalton McGuinty, the Minister of Community and Social Services Madeleine Meilleur, Hamilton Mayor Fred Eisenberger and Hamilton city councilor Bernie Morelli, via e-mail on Feb 24 08.

My question to you and to myself is how do they get away with the callous and unjust manner that workers approach their clients with, at Ontario Works, ODSP and even the Social Benefits Tribunal?

The answer is very simple. BECAUSE THEY CAN

For the record I would like to state, I have seen many improvements to the SBT since a change of it’s Chair and I expect to see many more. I can’t say the same for Ontario Works and ODSP.

The research shows when clients have contact with workers the response is not always the same. You could ask three different workers the same question and receive three different answers.

If the worker doesn't especially like you, they will simply ignore you. This means things like no return phone calls, ignoring verbal requests for benefits, requesting more than usual documents be brought in to prove eligibility and so on.

If the worker really doesn't like you, they will often do everything in their power to harass, intimidate and frustrate you into giving up and going away. This means things like ignoring written requests for benefits, telling you that the benefit doesn’t exist, denying benefits when you are entitled and no decision letters and so on.

If the worker does like you, they will give you any of the benefits that you ask for if you entitled. This is only if the worker is aware of the benefits requested. Here is an interesting problem. The vast majority of the workers are not aware of benefits that are available. This even includes some of the excellent workers. Another problem is that the fast majority of clients don’t even know what the benefits are.

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All clients must document, tape record and video record everything, every time when dealing with any OW or ODSP staff.
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The governments must, as a gesture of good will, give all Ontario Works and ODSP clients a written copy of the benefits that they say clients are entitled.

This would be a first concrete step taken to start the process in eliminating poverty.

Ontario Works Directive # 31.0 found at

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/mcss/english/pillars/social/ow-directives/ow_policy_directives.htm

or the:

Ontario Disability Support Program Directives #s 9.1 to 9.19. Found at

http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/mcss/english/pillars/social/odsp-is-directives/ODSP_incomesupport.htm

The only real remedy to this problem is for clients to sue their respective governments. For Ontario Works it would be their local municipal government and the Province of Ontario and for ODSP it would be the Province of Ontario.

In the Ontario Works Act it states No personal liability

77.(1)No action or other proceeding in damages shall be instituted against the Ministry, the Director, a delivery agent, an officer or employee of any of them or anyone acting under their authority for any act done in good faith in the execution or intended execution of a duty or authority under this Act or for any alleged neglect or default in the execution in good faith of any duty or authority under this Act.

In the Ontario Disability Support Program it states No personal liability

58. (1) No action or other proceeding in damages shall be instituted against the Ministry, the Director or a delivery agent, an officer, employee of any of them or anyone acting under their authority for any act done in good faith in the execution or intended execution of a duty or authority under this Act or for any alleged neglect or default in the execution in good faith of any duty or authority under this Act. 1997, c. 25, Sched. B, s. 58 (1).

This means that a client could sue for damages if bad faith could be proven.

It is called bad faith; a person who intentionally tries to deceive or mislead another in order to gain some advantage.

It is called willful blindness or willful deceit.

The government must get rid of the discretionary powers it allows workers in the OW and OSSP, Act, Regulations and Directives.

You’re either entitled to benefits or your not. It is extremely simple but the government will not do it until it gets sued for Bad Faith.

It’s so simple; all the government has to do is to look at how the federal government implements its Employment Insurance application process, and they are saving millions.

To receive benefits you must go online to apply, with exceptions for some disabled clients. You fill out a simple template and the next thing you experience is a cheque in the mail. If the federal government trusts us why can’t you?

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario.
E-mail Ron Payne

Comments for
Ontario Works, ODSP

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feeling alone and treated unfairly by tribunal
by: Anonymous

I am fighting my ow thru the tribunal right now so, I am totally upset with whole process every time they ask you for documents you provide and then they ask for more. My worker out and out right lied to me he told me even though his signature is on the paperwork does not mean he suspended my file or knows what is going on. Even the appeal to the tribunal is lies words I never said. I even asked for a new worker because my worker lies and twist words I say does not take action for his signature. Not happened yet. These people do not care if u live or die... It is like the pay comes right from the workers pocket .. even the manager states there appeal misses information you submit so it looks better for them . I was told to move and get another address before I cud apply again..n yep no income to move or eat cuz off on medical. But it ok... U have no rights when ur on this system

Ontario Works Confidentiality Agreement, My Ass...
by: Anonymous

In 2009 my daughter and I were placed in a shelter by the police to get away from an abusive marriage. Having never been in a shelter before, we were introduced to the Catholic Children's Aid Society and Ontario Works.

It seems that during my separation from this man in 2007-2008, because of my financial situation, I had to go on Ontario Works during this time. And in this time, my ex was in a relationship with an Ontario Works worker who was feeding him information about me...right down to how much money I was receiving on OW at that time. How do I know this? He told me...and not only that, but I knew first hand that he was involved with this woman. He could tell me information that no one else knew, but Ontario Works was privy to.

In 2009 when my daughter were introduced to Ontario Works again because of our shelter situation. At that time, I told the worker involved that I was nervous because I was afraid this same woman would divulge information about me again. Ontario Works gave my daughter and I different names, different birth dates and were told that only the supervisor at the time would have our file under lock and key in her desk...while they investigated. They even wanted to help my daughter and myself move out of the country, to live with my sister.

Now I realize it was only to sweep the whole situation under the rug. I learned that they passed around another confidentiality agreement to all workers to sign again, although their practice is to do this once a year. And that was all they did. When I would call them back to find out what if anything happened to this woman who was divulging confidential information to my abusive ex, they ignored my calls and treated me like vermin.

Why am I writing this? Because I believe that no system is perfect...and I just wanted to get it out there that your information is never safe. Confidentiality Agreements mean nothing to a woman who puts her heart first and her career second.

Just a warning to anyone out there reading this.

ODSP-dishonesty and took thousands from me..I would be in jail if I did it
by: Lisa Murphy

I now go through extream anxiety if I have to call them. No matter what, I would be belittled, cut off, or threatened.

I have been given over-payments equaling thousands, and when I (I have a head injury not afraid to admit it)disagreed, was denied again and told that there was nothing else I could do about it the decision was final. was told that was tribunal decision(no it wasn't) I recieve letters stating they requested"*****"exactly and given over payment of 3200.00. It stuck too.

I paid it always asking. I was cut off for moving out of my house b/c I was so depressed I was suicidal and told to move closer to dr.

Rented my house out for afew months and terminated. some1 transfered file anyway, Not allowed to own a house and not live in it. Told I was just a welfare reciepient.

When I moved back to my house afew months later, was threatened to be charged with fraud, b/c I wouldn't answer questions about my astrane husband.

My MSN was denied, I had to goto 2 phyic dr appt a day and NA where none was. Got so bad my dr who help me live, said if I died he was holding her responsible.new worker told me what to do b4 I had to go back to hell.

I was going to die from constant abuse and fighting for benefits, or hunger and cold.What can I do?? She is now gone. I wrote about this in my tribunal report.Is this human rights??I just want my 15,000 they double dipped from me.

Rude treatment from ODSP worker
by: Anonymous

I remember one time,i had to set up a appt to apply for O.W,the women behind the desk,for sum reason,was snippy and rude to me,like she didn't like me,I even stated bck at her,why are u talking down to me,seriously u think i wanna be here,She was straight up RUDE..I felt like crap

Ontario works and child support
by: brittany Patchett

I agree with the comment below about child suport. I have an court order for my first daughter. But yet i get nothing cause ow gets it. I think thats so unfair cause really what does ow give me Rent and basic needs for myself. I get nothing at all for my kids which is bullshit to me cause they need to eat. Gov money like gst isnt tooken off my checks so why is my child tax credit all i get for my kids?? They need clothes more than i do. Any one with kids know they grow like bad weeds What about when they go from a crib to a bed ow doesnt help. Dont forget school ITS NOT ENOUGH child suport should be the same as child tax and be giving to the parent cause we get nothing for our kids on ow

Horrible treatment by workers is allowed!
by: Anonymous

The goverment allows it! It will never stop! We need goverment that works not only for the rich but for the poor also!

There is a huge profit to be made from the poor! We (the poor) are job creators for many highly individuals.

We will all someday stand before the same God and give a full account for our every thought, word and action! They laugh for now only!!!

Child Support and ODSP
by: Anonymous

i have a two year old daughter, whom i have raised on my own. Her dad was ordered to pay child support back in september 2010.

He finally made a payment last month after two and a half years of NOTHING, and Ontario Works says I am entitled to nothing.

Well, then what was the point in going for child support in the first friggen place?

I agree - ODSP workers need better training
by: Anonymous

I don't know how many times I've had problems with ODSP workers and them providing me with the wrong information.

On several occasions they refuse to give a direct answer to my questions when they finally do give an answer it would be incorrect.

I would find out later they were wrong and in some cases be held responsible for their mistake which I find very unfair. It seems to always end up being your word against theirs on the information you've received from them.

And I agree they don't provide information on what your entitled to while on ODSP. I believe something should be done to fix this ongoing problem.

Being screwed by my odsp worker
by: John F

My family, my wife and 2 small children ages 2 & 3, live in Brantford, Ont. in a small war time cottage which we own. In our home we have a "part" basement. which means we have a pad for our furance, and water heater, and the rest is dirt. also it is only about 4 feet high. Needless to say we hardly ever go down there.

About 2 weeks ago we noticed that the floor between our kitchen and living room was sinking. I went through the small opening into our basement and found that ALL the wooden polls that once held up our floor joists were either laying in the dirt, or had fallen over enough that they were no longer touching the joists. NOT GOOD NEWS!!!!!

I called my "wonderful" odsp worker and explained what I had found. She told me to get a couple of estamates and send them into her for the repair. I was only able to get 1 company to give me this. They also provided a letter, at my workers request, stating how bad the damage was, and how important it was to make the repairs ASAP. Every other company I called refused to go into my basement until I had all the dirt removed.

Added note, the person that came from the 1 company that did go into our basement became ill after being in our basement for 30 minutes, this was due to the dirt, and lasted for 2 weeks.

I gave what I had to my worker. I also did some research into the odsp act and sent the following information along with the letter and estimate:

The repair must be necessary in order to permit the home to continue to be used as a primary residence for the benefit unit.

To provide assistance for necessary home repairs that enable members of the benefit unit to safely reside in their home.

Repairs will be considered if: the recipient could be forced to vacate the premises if these repairs are completed; there ia a risk to the health or well-being of a member of the benefit unit; and/or extensive damage will result to the home if the repairs are not undertaken immediately.

Needless to say the repairs my home require fall into each of the above.

The following ia a part of the letter attached to the estimate:
The main floor of the home is sagging, the walls are cracking, doors and windows are inoperable as a result.

After giving all this information to my worker I was told by her that my request for repairs have been denied!

She stated that she didn't feel the repairs required were a "home repair". THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY?

However, she went on to tell me that I need to appeal this as soon as I get the letter stating I have been denied. I should mark 'urgent" on my appeal in hopes that it will be addressed quickly by SOMEONE ELSE in the same office!

Am I the only one who finds this VERY fishy?

Did my worker not just tell me, "between the lines" that she didn't want to aprove my repairs but she feels someone else in the office will??

If so her actions have put my family in danger, undue danger. Would that not be an act of bad faith?

Going after your ODSP worker
by: H. Peter Klobes

Everybody listen up!!!!

Whenever ODSP $crew$ you around contact your local
MPP and have their office go after ODSP. I do it and
it works all the time.

DON'T LET ODSP SHIT ON YOU!!!! FIGHT BACK!!!

HYDRO, AND ODSP.
by: Anonymous

I HAVE A WORKER THAT IS A B@#CH, THE FIRST ONE THAT, I HAD. HELPT ME WITH ALL KINDS OF SITUATIONS, AND HELPT ME WITH FUNS. SHE WAS A GREAT HELP,AND SO THEY SWITCHDE THE WORKERS AROUND AND I ENDED UP WITH THE WITCH FROM HELL.!!!!! SHE WONT EVEN RETURN MY CALLS AT TIMES. AND WHEN SHE DOES I ASK HER IF ODSP WOULD HELP WITH HYDRO. AND SHE TOLD ME THAT THE ONLY WAY SHE COULD HELP. WOULD BE TO HAVE A NOTICE SAYING THAT IT WOULD GET DISCONECTED, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO COME TO THAT. I REALLY DONT WANT TO GIVE MYSELF A BAD NAME. BUT SHE IS NOT LEAVING MUCH CHOICE. WHY WONT SHE HELP. I SPOKE TO MY EXWORKER, AND SHE SAID THAT WE DO HELP WITH THE SUM OF 50-75 DIPPENDING ON THE HOUSE HOLD A MONTH. BUT SHE CANT HELP ME SHE SAID COUSE. SHE IS NO LONGER MY WORKER. ANYONE OUTB THERE HAVE A SOLUTION...............................

abuse by Ontario Works
by: Anonymous

I was subjected to what I feel was abuse by the OW office workers.

I fully qualified, but the amount won't pay my rent, much less groceries or other bills.

I had a disability that made mobility painful and they forgot to tell me that they could come to me.

I had to put off life saving surgery to accommodate their schedule.

Between the Provincial government cutbacks and the OW directives, people are literally dying as an aquaintance did two weeks ago.

I think it's time people woke up and publically protested the "make work" projects that are the root causes of the problem.

sons' ODSP case worker
by: Anonymous

I am so tired I don't know what to do. My son is delayed an cannot do any running aroung paper work ect. So i am his guardian. His first worker was so nice and helpful. He needed to go down south of ontario to se a specialist and she help with a day.

His now new worker has been giving me a hard time about this paper, that paper and then because she knows it is the long weekend and we need to leave for the south on the Tuesday she won't give us the money in his account until 4:30 Friday.

What happens if she does not do it? That means she has all the power to make things difficult she won't even tell me the amount we are entitled to.
What do you do with a case worker like that

ODSP; Different Region, different hoops
by: Anonymous

My major problem with ODSP is that different regions have different hoops to go through. I am an amputee living in mid-western Ontario and my prosthetic care is done in London. Both under different regions.

Trying to get approval often requires contacting different offices within the Misistry of Community and Social Services (ODSP and OW). The offices in my region do not seem inclined to contact each other; but would rather make you do the leg work.

And trying to find what ODSP does and does not cover is another nightmare. In my opinion Ontario Works; doesn't.

good ODSP service,on the whole
by: Anonymous

I have had good service from my ODSP woker on most counts,the one that I needed the most help was a rather hard sell.

I had had two strokes while visiting my father,I landed in hospital about 6 hours from my home. The doctors said I was in no shape to return other than by air.

My wife called the ODSP offices and was told to drive down and pick me up (was not the worker I used most time)My normal worker was at last contected and she came through as always,I was flown back to my home town.

I had reason to contact ODSP once again and I asked for this case worker and told that you take who you get. I'm not one to back off and later repeated calls was put through to my caseworker who is to soon retire,she again went to bat for me.

As far as ODSP on the whole,I think it would have been better for them (cheaper) had I died. The bad workers are many, the good ones are very few.

past ODSP worker gives advice
by: Anonymous

Let me tell you, from having worked behind the scenes at the ODSP office- Many of their workers are jaded and prejudice. I left because I couldn't stand the terminology used to refer to clients and the racist remarks made by some workers. A serious Values clash and when I tried to say something about it- I ended up with a huge target on my back!!

I truly enjoyed my job and enjoyed my clients- I returned my phone calls and tried to maximize benefits. I found the loop-holes and helped clients gain access... I can't say the same for my previous colleagues.

Do not let anyone dehumanize you- do not let them refuse to pay for glasses/ contact lenses! Yes! Lenses! Their directives are posted online, Google the terms "OW Directives" or "ODSP Directives" and you will be able to check your own entitlements and create requests while making reference to the exact directive. This way your request can't be refused. Go to managers @ ODSP! Don't be afraid!

Your community start up is available MORE than 1x/12months- it's called an "exceptional circumstance CSUMB". They can hassle you and give you a hard time- but when I was ODSP (2009) new directives came through indicating we could NOT refuse an expceptional circumstance request! Access your benefits to the maximum!!

Don't EVER let a worker QUESTION your disability- we don't have access to that info. believe it or not- unless you have a physical disability requiring accomodation, so your disability is YOUR SECRET from your worker! YOU DON'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE! It's on a file somewhere- just not accessible to your worker. You passed all of the required tests to be considered disabled enough to be on the system- don't let a worker question you about it!!

Workers treating people different
by: Anonymous

I completely agree that if workers don't like you they will do exactly as you had described. I remember being 16 yes old and had no home to go to and no job yet. I needed to rely on gwa to survive. Other ppl would tell me about all beset benefits but my worker just treated me badly or told me I was ineligable for things or plain ignored me. When I got q new worker things were definately much different. I do agree that nowadays workers are much more aware of benefits etc and I don't hear about differential treatment nowadays

Ontario Works
by: Donna Simoncini

I completely agree with Ron`s comments! I am against any type of exploitation of the vulnerable who find themselves under the thumb of a RUTHLESS, POWER HUNGRY system.

Great system how ever!
by: Anonymous

Well let me say the poor are always getting ripped off, even for benifits, they get ripped off by a 3 tier system, under the table and over the table and by labor contract.

We the poor are subjected to poverty, and labor exploits, even by the big corporations, these powers know only money and every way to steal it from the poor, from the system as a whole, and no one can do anything about it!

Now lets talk health care - billions are sucked out in a blink of an eye, and they get richer by the minute, and what do we the poor get more taxes, bull education systems, and general welfare healthcare who really dont care they just want to see how many pills you will subject yourself too, and you lose, and then you lose your life to some mix of toxic drugs, generic.

Hummm, what else can we subject the poor to, high interest rates, high gas rates, high food prices, high labour healthcare costs, milk it milk it, we really love North America, suck them for all their worth, humm what are you gonna do, protest, how about take legal action, humm, municipal corporate scheme's!

About blood pressure monitors and the rules of ODSP
by: Anonymous

I have uncontrolled blood pressure and was told by specialist to get the 24 hr blood pressure monitor which was a cost of $65. I was also advised that if they did not get a 24 hr cancellation notice then i would still have to pay the fee.

I sent in numerous requests to the ODSP worker and finally the day I was driving into the driveway of the specialist I was called on the cell phone to say it was not covered. This meant i would still be responsible for paying the fee whether or not i got the monitor.

I have always been told by Ont. Works and OPSP not to miss appts and to always return their calls immediately so why dont they have to return the same service back to their clients?

ODSP failure to provide eye glasses!
by: Anonymous

Every year I have to bang my head on the walls just to get my husband's and 2 son's eye glasses approved by ODSP.

Every year I send in the prescriptions and written cost estamites from the eye glass company telling exactly how much they will cost and every year O.D.S.P fills out the form incorrectly.

They know they have to put the total cost they are covering for the them to be covered but they always just put frames and lenses as prescribed! Thats WRONG!

No company will deal with welfare or o.d.s.p. recipiants anymore because they refuse to pay the full cost of the glasses.

So how am I suppose to pay the full price of the glasses for 3 people totalling 1,000 per year?

Ontario Works/ ODSP
by: Anonymous

New links for the Ontario Works / ODSP policy directives.

Ontario Works (OW) http://www.accesson.ca/mcss/english/pillars/social/directives/ow_policy_directives.htm

Ontario Disability Support Program ODSP Income Support Policy Directives
ODSP Employment Supports Policy Directives

Ron Payne
Welfare Legal
Hamilton, Ontario
Email welfarelegal2004(at)hotmail(dot)com welfarelegal2004@hotmail.com
Blog http://welfarelegal.blogspot.com/

Ontario needs / ODSP
by: Gail

I totally agree with Ron on this, you can ask three different workers and get 3 different answers and three different personal responces.

I find that my worker makes me go through too much collecting of doctors signatures to get what I need.

Disabled people by the very definition of a disability have enough anxiety in their lives without having to jump through hoops for a simple request.

Going to 2 or 3 different Doctors to get the help one needs has to be costing the province way more than it needs to. Are we really that untrustworthy?

I'm tired of being held up and usually give up, which I'm sure is exactly what they want.

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Ontario Works, ODSP

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